Brother UK Cycling Podcast – Episode 49
Timothy John
“If your passion lies in elite British road racing and you want an inside line on the teams, riders, organisers and sponsors that make this sport such a compelling spectacle, you’re in the right place.
“I’m Timothy John and joining me for every episode is my co-host, the Managing Director of Brother UK, Phil Jones.”
Phil Jones
“Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here. We’re going to use this platform to talk about all the key issues surrounding the sport. With special guests, deep dives into hot topics and plenty of chat, we’ll keep you informed about all things UK racing. Stay tuned!”
Timothy John
“Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast where our guest today is one of the most exciting British talents in the UCI WorldTour, even in a golden era for young British riders. Max Poole, thank-you very much indeed for joining us.”
Max Poole
“No no. It’s all good. Thanks for having me.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“I wanted to throw a phrase at you right at the beginning. The phrase: ‘If you’re good enough, you’re old enough.’ Does that resonate with you?”
Max Poole
“Errm, yeah. I think it’s something we see more nowadays, not just in cycling, but in all sports. I think there’s a lot of really young talent, and I think it’s true: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough.
“From a physical point, obviously there’s a few aspects where there’s experience needed, but from a physical point, I think if you’re good enough, you’re old enough.”
Timothy John
“It’s a phrase attributed to Sir Matt Busby, who was the manager of Manchester United back in the day, as I’m sure you know., back in the day.
decades ahead in that trend.
“What do you think has changed within the sport?”
Max Poole
“I think firstly over the past few years the way races have been raced has changed a lot. The tactics have changed a little bit. We’re seeing races start a lot further out than maybe would we have before.
“And maybe the training has changed as well, from that point. We’re seeing a lot more guys at a younger age training a lot harder than maybe they would have ten years ago.
not particularly old, and they’re able to go from a long way out, which is different to what I watched growing up.
“I think the main thing is just the training. I think there’s a lot more load on the younger guys than there was before, and if hey can soak it up then, yeah, it shows in races.
thing, I think.”
Timothy John
“Yeah. I think the sustainability factor is almost as much about the lifestyles, the demands, as it is the physical requirement, isn’t it? Is Remco going to want to live up a mountain 200 days a year at altitude training camps, and perhaps yourself, in his late twenties.
“Is that something you think about, or does this feel like the right environment for you?”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I think there’s a lot of factors that add into everything. It adds up. For sure, where you live can be important, depending on what type of rider you are. You see a lot of guys living up in the mountains now. I think it has a big impact not just on the quality of training but on the quality of life, as well. Every little thing adds up in the end, especially when you’re pushing towards a big goal. It’s the only way now. Everyone’s going up to altitude in the lead up; chefs, personalised meals, everything.
investing and doing the right things. Hopefully, with the help of the team, we can give it back to them and perform out on the roads.”
Timothy John
“Is there a counterbalance in terms of the atmosphere, the vibe within the squad. As you say, it’s very professional, you have everything you need, but equally, at least here in Calpe in January, it seems to be very relaxed. There seems to be a good bond among the riders; good camaraderie. That’s also an essential component, I’d suggest.”
Max Poole
“Yeah. I think this year especially we have a good group here. The camaraderie is on a really good level, actually; probably the best I’ve experienced. This is only my second year as a WorldTour rider, but I had the previous year on the devo team as well.
“It’s a really tight-knit group. A lot of younger guys, as well, which I think shapes the group dynamic, but it’s good. The older guys like it. There’s a really good balance - older guys, younger guys - and it works really nicely.
we’re all preparing well, and we’re not stressed about anything.
“I think that’s a good sign and part of the dynamic of the group this year. It’s nice and chilled and everyone gets on really well, so I think it’s just natural.”
Timothy John
“There’s quite a few Brits in this team: yourself, Oscar, Sean, and then in the devo team, a quarter of the new intake are British riders.
“Clearly, it’s a team where you’ve felt at home. Is there a synergy between the Dutch and the British cultures? Is it an easy team for an English rider to assimilate into?”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I found it really easy, I settled in really well in my first year in the devos. It made the transition to the WorldTour team as easy as possible: really smooth.
There’s no isolation or grouping or anything.”
Timothy John
“You mentioned the devo team, and I think it’s fair to say that DSM, or Sunweb, back in the day, really set the pace there with the Keep Challenging centre in Sittard and accommodation for young riders.
WorldTour.
“Is that how it seems to you. Did you have other options on the table?”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I was on the junior Academy, and then I decided to leave my time there. I had a good number of years, there. For me, as a junior, it was the best place possible.
talking about Britain, a lot of British guys who are choosing to come to these development teams and U23 teams, and they’re doing very well.
“It’s nice to see. We have a lot of guys now on the development team who are Brits. Hopefully, we’ll see them in the coming years move up as well.
good and really improved me as a bike rider and a person. I’ll always be grateful to them, but for me, now, it felt like the right place to be, and I don’t have any regrets.”
Timothy John
“Do you follow the domestic scene? I’m here with Brother. We sponsor two domestic women’s teams. We’ve been in domestic cycling for about ten years. While the women’s scene is exploding, the men’s scene, unfortunately, is in what seems to be an almost permanent state of decline.
“Is that encouraging young British riders onto devo teams, do you think? It’s almost a way out of that scene.”
Max Poole
“I think it’s really hard to say what’s going on at the minute, domestically. They’re in a tough spot. It’s probably the lowest it’s been for quite a long time. I’m sure, eventually, it will pick up again, and we’ll see like the old days with all the teams: Madison and JLT and Rapha. It was really good to watch.
“It’s not as attractive now for a younger guy; a younger rider. I’m not too sure why or what the reasoning is. It’s a a way out of getting stuck maybe in a never-ending circle.
“I think that the work the WorldTour teams are doing to push development is really good; as many Brits as possible. It’s good to see.”
Timothy John
“One of the areas of domestic cycling that still functions extremely well is the junior scene. You had a tremendous season in 2021: you won the junior Tour of Yorkshire, you won the junior Tour of the Mendip, you won the opening stage of the junior Tour of Wales. You also finished second at Philippe Gilbert Juniors.
professional teams?”
Max Poole
“I think still the British results contributed towards that, but, obviously, the standard is a lot higher on the Continent. If you get [a result at a] bigger reach, it obviously weighs more heavily than a British one.
“But the British junior racing is held in really high regard. The quality is really good. When you go across, you see the top guys, there are always a few Brits in there.
“I think it’s always gong to be natural that when racing on the Continent with lots of different nationalities and the best riders in the world then they take that into high regard, but still the British racing is of a good quality and the fields are good. I know when I was racing, some of my best results and the ones I was happiest with were back at home.
“It’s a different style of racing, maybe, but they count all the same.”
Timothy John
“Another part of the British scene that is working incredibly well is Giles Pidcock’s teams, which routinely produce riders ready for professional careers. Jacob Bush has just joined this particular team.
“What role did Giles play in you development? How valuable was his influence?”
Max Poole
“I’ve known Giles and Sonia for a long time. It’s really hard to know for how long: under 12 or maybe even before that. I’ve always been involved with Giles. He’s always helped me out, even with training sessions around Richard Dunn in Bradford when I was younger. All that kind of stuff, really.
with the Tour of Yorkshire.
“Just to get you out in Europe: I think he really understood and valued that. A big part of junior racing is to get out, get the results, get the experience. It was really fun as well; probably some of the best moments of my career so far: racing with your mates and trying to do well, but also learning along the way.
“Like I say, he’s been through it already. He knows a lot, and he’s a really loyal person. He does a lot for the British junior scene or even younger. He still has an influence.
“He’s doing really good work, and I’m always really grateful to Giles and Sonia as well. That was definitely a big part of why I was able to do pretty well as a junior.”
Timothy John
“Brother has a very close relationship with the Rayner Foundation, and Giles is absolutely at the heart of their Gateway Project. I think you were a Rayner rider as well at one point, weren’t you?”
Max Poole
“Yeah. I think the team always got some help from the Rayner Foundation. I know they do really good work as well. They play a really big part of under-23s trying to make a name for themselves out in Belgium or The Netherlands or wherever it is. I think they’re really important. They support a lot of riders. They helped us out when I was on the team. I think they’re really valuable to the younger riders who may be on a development team and trying to make a name for themselves.”
Timothy John
“Have you been to the dinner? I’m sure Jos will round you up at some point!”
Max Poole
“No, I’ve not been to one yet.”
Timothy John
“You’re missing out.”
Max Poole
“I know. I hear a lot of stories, so it would be nice to go once, but so far I haven’t been.”
Timothy John
“Well, watch this space. You’ll be on the poster next year, I’m quite sure.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“How was the connection to this team made, Max? We’ve talked about Fensham-Howes, we’ve talked about the Academy, we’ve talked about the wins, both domestically and in Europe, as a junior.
“How did the connection to his team come about? Did they reach out to you? Did you reach out to them?”
Max Poole
“Yeah, so I spoke to Matt Winston, who is now my personal coach. He said that they was interested. We went from there and started talking some more. I met up with him with my dad on the M62 somewhere; one of the services.
“We had a little chat there. I think then I decided to sign, maybe the day before or around the time of the national champs, where I won [2021]. It was fairly early on in the season.
“Basically, he got in contact, and we started talking from there and laid down a plan. They put forward what they wanted, and I was pretty happy with their vision for more, really. It really aligned with what I wanted, for the longer term.
“I think it was important for me to have the year at U23. The step up is so big anyway that it’s really valuable to get a year there; try and settle in there before making the next step.
of saying how I managed to get here.”
Timothy John
“Did it feel like a step into the big time? You seem like an incredibly relaxed and level-headed person, but was there a moment where you thought: “This is it. This is a professional team. This is a WorldTour team. My career is about to take off.’”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I think as it’s happening….Maybe, if you’d told me when I was younger, I would have been pretty blown away. It’s weird now. Also with some of the races. It kind of feels strange but not strange at the same time, because it’s just me going through it. It just kind of feels more normal. If you’d told me again when I was younger, it would have really blown my socks off but now just going through it, it doesn’t feel so big.“
Timothy John
“We were discussing, Max, your introduction to the team, how the connection was made via Matt Winston, and you were talking about how valuable it was to have spent a year with the ‘devo’ team, rather than going straight to the WorldTour team.
“Last year, you were with the WorldTour team. Did that feel like a coming of age? You had a tremendous season.”
Max Poole
“I think, firstly, just to make it there is a big achievement. It’s something that you really work towards from when you start riding. To get there in the end was a really nice feeling to be here and be part of it, but, obviously, you don’t want to just be part of it, you want do actually do stuff.
ribs and had to have some time out.
“The team were really good and put a nice plan together for me to get back into training. They invested in me a lot to get me back to the point where I could start racing at a good level. That’s where it took off a little bit: at the Tour of the Alps and Romandie, which was a big step, not just from before, but from where I left off at Haut Var at the start of the season.
myself.”
TImothy John
“You were the team’s highest-placed rider at the Tour of the Alps. Were you riding as the protected rider, as a leader? Were you putting your hand up in the morning and saying, ‘I feel good. I need the team around me’ Or was it more fluid than that?”
Max Poole
“I think the goal was to protect me a bit and just keep me in a good spot. I don’t think, as a team, we expected me to perform as well as I did, but the team did a really good job there. We came up with some nice race plans. It was a nice result and to win my first jersey was a really special feeling. It was a good race and a good learning point from starting to be a bit more protected in some situations.”
Timothy John
“You were second in the white jersey competition at the Dauphiné. By that stage of the season, everyone’s very serious. The Tour is only a few weeks away for those who are going. Did you feel that increase in intensity?”
Max Poole
“Yeah. The Dauphiné was probably one of the hardest races of the season; maybe the hardest race, along with the Vuelta. The racing is on all the time. A lot of guys there are ready to go to the Tour.
It felt like I was in the race and not just riding along, trying to follow, although you sometimes feel a bit like it, you are in the race, ultimately.
“I think going through that with the competition was, again, a good learning step. Unfortunately, I couldn’t hold onto the white. The last day, I was a bit cooked. I was really happy, anyway. It was a good race and great experience which I took forward to the second half of the season.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Yeah, and, of course, the second half of the season was dominated by the Vuelta, which was an extraordinary race for you: in the break on three occasions, and, on stage 18, an unbelievable ride.
“I think the adventure began as early as stage one. You guys won the opening stage team time-trial in crazy conditions. You were off early, I think, before it got dark. What do youremember about that day?”
Max Poole
“Obviously, we were there a couple of days before to do some TTT training. I think, you know, we all felt the same, that, for sure, we were not going to be pushing for the win, just seeing how things went, but, yeah, on the day of the race, it was pretty relaxed around the hotel in the morning. Obviously, with the later start, you don’t need to leave the hotel until later. It was quite a relaxed morning; get to the race. I think we did maybe two laps of the course.
difference where it mattered.
“It was really special to be in the hot seats with everybody and enjoy that moment when we knew we’d won. Probably the highlight, not just of the year, but of my whole time being a cyclist.”
Timothy John
“To win as a team is a rare occurrence for a cyclist, isn’t it? It’s a team sport with an individual winner. Was it all the more special because you could share it?”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I think exactly that. To win as a team is a real achievement. You’ve all been working really hard towards this goal and without one another it wouldn’t have come off. It was super special and a really nice way to start off the race. To enjoy it with all the guys there, I think we’ll cherish that for the rest of our lives.”
Timothy John
“You spoke earlier about the value of balance among different age groups throughout the squad, and that’s obvious here in Calpe when you see the camaraderie of the riders.
who’s been there and done it.”
Max Poole
“Yeah, I think there, as well, we had a really good blend. I think it was predominantly a young team. We had four guys, debuting at a Grand Tour, which is quite a lot, but, on the other hand, the other guys starting were pretty experienced: Romain, Hamo, Combuad and Dino. They’ve all been there and ridden Grand Tours.
riding with these guys in the biggest races.”
Timothy John
“You were in the break as early as stage six, which turned out to be the break that defined the race. What was your feeling on the road that day? Had you hoped, had had you planned to be in the break, or did you find yourself with good legs and an opportunity?”
Max Poole
“I think to be fair to everyone who was in the break that day, you really had to earn it. It was a big fight. I remember, it was going on for over, probably, half the stage, over some climbs and hard terrain. Everybody there deserved to be there and clearly had good legs on the day.
“It was a tough stage. I remember it quite well. This fight seemed to go on forever. Once it had happened, it was like, ‘Yeah, finally’, and you looked around, and there was still half the bunch there.
other teams had guys like that there.
“I think it was still a a bit of a tactical thing to control the pace from in front and behind. Like I say, once you get in there, it was already starting to look ahead to the final. It was just a hard day’s racing that day, and a tough final climb as well.”
Timothy John
“It was a coronation day for young riders. Martinez went into red, you’d been in the break. It did feel like a generational shift, watching on television. I’m quite sure you had other things on your mind than considering the age make-up of the breakaway, but it definitely felt that there were some strong young riders being given their head at their first Grand Tour.
“You were in the break again on stage sixteen, for much longer this time, I think.”
Max Poole
“Yeah, the day before the Angliru, maybe. The start, I remember, was pretty bad weather. We were there, we were ready. Romain and I got in the move. It was a really strong move, actually, and one that should have gone all the way to the end, but, unfortunately, INEOS decided to really go hard and bring it back.
“I managed to get into the next break. That made it to the bottom of the final climb. Unfortunately, on this occasion, Jumbo decided to bring that one back.
“It just didn’t happen, and I remember coming away that day feeling a bit, ‘That was the chance.’ That was the feeling. It was nice to be in both breaks, but, ultimately, we weren’t fighting it out.
“It was good to see that the feeling was good and the legs were there, so deep into the race, but left coming away thinking, ‘Maybe that was the one.”
Timothy John
“Well, you didn’t have to wait long for the chance to come: two days laster, stage 18, and an unbelievable ride. Trying to chase down Remco on those crazy descents. Caruso joined you and then promptly decided not to work. What’s your stand out memory from that day?”
Max Poole
“I managed to make it into the break. It was kind of a weird way the formation happened. It just kind of went bit randomly. I think everyone was expecting a big fight again but, not it just went.
“Remco was the last guy to come across on his own. Obviously, that’s a big game changer. People were looking around at him, waiting around for him to do his thing. If he hadn’t been there, I think for sure the race would have panned out a lot differently.
was there fighting all race to be in a break to win a stage. It was just normal to try and hang on to him. Unfortunately, I couldn’t. He was really strong.
“I did a good descent. I had Phil and Cam in the car behind me. Phil was giving pretty good comms, so I wasn’t really looking a the map. I could just focus on a doing the descent. In the moment, it didn’t feel so fast, but then afterwards I heard I’d taken back time, so looking back it was a good descent.
valley road, I was already pretty cooked. Unfortunately, I blew up and got rolled for a third place.
“Of course, I was a bit disappointed in the moment, but I was happy that I’d gone in for the fight. It didn’t pay off, but it will eventually, some day at some Grand Tour. It was a good experience, a hard day out, and just a good memory to hang on to.”
Timothy John
“I think it speaks volumes, Max, when you say it’s normal to go for the win. It’s not normal for a 20-year-old to be in a break with one of the best riders, possibly in the history of the sport, in his debut Grand Tour, and yet you mentioned a couple of times, you were there to fight, and that was written all over that performance.
“You were definitely not star struck. You were not there to make up the numbers. You were there to try and win the stage. An amazing performance.”
Max Poole
“Yeah, well, I’d overcome some problems in the first week. I wasn’t there just to roll around I had to wait, really, until the third week to get stuck into race. The legs started to turn a corner there. I wasn’t going to suffer for two weeks just to roll around for anybody. That was kind of the mentally there, and that’s just how it is.”
Timothy John
“It was your last race. Your season ended there. In what sort of physical condition did you finish the race? Some riders ride themselves into form throughout a Grand Tour; others need a Grand Tour on their knees. How was it for you?”
“I’ll be honest, I finished well in the third week. I was looking forward to coming out to some of the Italian classics at the end of the season. I took the normal rest. Started training. I just wasn’t right. I found it hard to train in the week or so after the Vuelta, in that transition bit into the Italian races. The plan was to go there and race, but, unfortunately, it didn’t happen.
is what it is, and I think it was the right decision in the end, so I can’t have any complaints, and it was then about resting up and looking ahead to this year.”
Timothy John
“Has it felt like a long winter? How have you filled your time? Have you been home?”
Max Poole
“No, it’s been a really good winter, actually. I took some time off. I spent some time at home with the family. We had a nice team get-together in October. It was really nice to get to know the new riders and spend some time with the team where bikes weren’t involved.
“Restarted training before the December camp, where I had a good couple of weeks, then another good couple of weeks on the team camp, then back home for Christmas, just nice and relaxed, spent some time at home. Just a mental refresh, which is nice, then back here in January already.
“That’s a brief summary of the winter, but it’s been a good one. I’m pretty happy with it. It’s set us up well.”
TImothy John
“Where is home?”
Max Poole
“Home is just outside Scunthorpe; just out there, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, a little village called Garthorpe.”
Timothy John
“Does it feel strange to go back there now, or is it nice to get back?”
Max Poole
“It doesn’t feel strange to go back. It’s always the same. It kind of feels weird to think you’re going back, but once you’re back it just feels normal. It’s nice. Put my feet up and relax a bit.
Timothy John
“And 2024: it’s here already. Do you have any specific goals or is ti more a general emphasis on maturity, on containing to develop?”
Max Poole
“I think there are a couple of goals, but generally there’s one goal, which is to keep developing and growing at a good rate: a bit like we talked earlier, you know: to do everything in the right way and make it sustainable for the future, because that’s also really important.
“Hopefully, I can work towards the Giro: go there, together with Romain and a pretty good team. We have some goals there which, when we’re on it, we can really achieve and have a nice race.
Vuelta with him and other races before. I really appreciate time with him. You’re always learning stuff with him. He’s a really experienced guy.“
Timothy John
“Team DSM-Firmenich-PostNL obviously feels like home. You’ve signed til 202. That must give you a lot of stability.”
Max Poole
“Yeah. We extended, or renewed, however you call it, last year. That was a good feeling, to get that done. You can completely focus on what you’re doing on the bike, rather than having to worry about other things.
“It was also nice to get the reassurance from the team: their belief that, going forwards, I can be one of their guys. It was a good confidence boost and now I can just focus on the riding and doing what I need to do.”
Timothy John
“I’m sure the prospect of seeing you at the Giro will delight British fans, after your performance at the Vuelta last year.
“Max, thanks very much indeed for your time today, and very best of luck in 2024.”
Max Poole
“Cheers. Thank-you very much.”
OUTRO
Phil Jones
“If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please hit subscribe.”
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