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Brother UK Cycling Podcast – Episode 19

Episode Description

June represents peak season on the elite British road racing calendar: a fact reflected in this packed edition of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast. 

Co-hosts Timothy John and Phil Jones MBE, the Managing Director of Brother UK, are joined by VeloUK editor Larry Hickmott to look back on the Women’s Tour and look ahead to the Women’s CiCLE Classic and National Road and Time-Trial Championships. 

Further input comes from Becky Storrie (CAMS-Basso), who was crowned best British rider at the Women’s Tour, from Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox, the CEO and founder of recycling firm

Enval, from Colin Clews, the race director and founder of the CiCLE Classic, and from Mark Botteley, the manager of Team Brother UK-Orientation Marketing. 

In a wide-ranging discussion, Tim, Phil and Larry reflect on the Women’s Tour’s closest-ever finish and the effect on the race of tactics, time bonuses and a gruelling parcours. Did the Trek-Segafredo team of winner Elisa Longo-Borghini clinch her one-second victory with dominant riding? Or were the questionable tactics of the FDJ-Nouvelle Aquitaine team a contributing factor to their leader, Grace Brown, finishing as runner-up? 

Becky Storrie’s emerging brilliance offers a more straightforward topic. The 23-year-old, who began her career with the Brother UK-OnForm development team, shone on the queen stage of the Women’s Tour by matching the strongest riders in the world on the cruel gradients of Black Mountain. Who better to describe the demands of the race and the challenges and opportunities of progressing from the domestic scene to the Women’s WorldTour than Becky? 

Brother UK’s sponsorship of the race’s Green Zones opens another fascinating topic for discussion - recycling, sustainability and the circular economy - and how each of these aligned areas is likely to have a growing effect on professional cycling. Dr Ludlow-Palafox shares the importance of the circular economy to his company. As a recycler of flexible plastics,

including the gel wrappers collected from the Brother UK-sponsored Green Zones, Enval is on the frontline of a critical debate.

Phil shares reports from inside the peloton on the impact of Brexit on the movement of British riders seeking to establish careers in mainland Europe, while Larry reveals that the impacts of Covid are still felt by British teams whose rosters are being decimated by infections among their athletes. Elite British road racing, it seems, is not immune from the wider issues that shape our lives. 

The Women’s CiCLE Classic is a case in point: a race that almost folded when its principal backer decided to withhold further funds in a dispute with British Cycling over its policy on transgender cyclists. Crowdfunding and a new sponsor gained from the publicity generated by the stand-off saved the race, but did the threat posed to the Women’s CiCLE Classic only underline the fragility of cycling’s economic model?

British Cycling’s National Road and Time-Trial Championships offer a chance to consider Britain’s strongest riders. Phil, Larry and Tim consider every angle, from the course to the contenders to disciplines ranging from circuit races to time-trials. Can Dumfries and Galloway and the championships’ first foray north of the border in nearly 10 years match last year’s

spectacle in Lincoln? And should the federation have stuck with last year’s end-of-season calendar slot? Our experts debate the issues. 

Listen now to episode 19 of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast for informed debate among expert witnesses. Subscribe via your podcast provider and never miss another episode.

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Episode 19: 2022 Women's Tour Review

Episode contents

  • 00.02 – Introduction
  • 00.37 – Hello And Welcome
  • 01.53 – Part One: Women's Tour Review
  • 10.47 – Part Two: Becky Storrie Interview
  • 17.56– Part Three: Brexit and Covid
  • 20.50 – Part Four: Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox Interview
  • 23.28 – Part Five: The Circular Economy
  • 32.24 – Part Six: Women's CiCLE Classic Preview
  • 42.36 – Part Seven: Mark Botteley Interview
  • 44.28 – Part Eight: National Championships Preview
  • 51.21 - Part Nine: Outro



Timothy John

“If your passion lies in elite British road racing and you want an inside line on the teams, riders, organisers and sponsors that make this sport such a compelling spectacle, you’re in the right place.

“I’m Timothy John and joining me for every episode is my co-host, the Managing Director of Brother UK, Phil Jones.”

Phil Jones 

“Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here. We’re going to use this platform to talk about all the key issues surrounding the sport. With special guests, deep dives into hot topics and plenty of chat, we’ll keep you informed about all things UK racing. Stay tuned!”

Hello and welcome

Timothy John

“Hello and welcome to this new episode of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast, where today we’re looking back on the closest ever finish of The Women’s Tour. 

“We’ll be hearing from Becky Storrie of CAMS-Basso, who finished Britain’s leading Women’s WorldTour race as the Best British Rider. 

“We’ll be discussing the Brother UK-sponsored Green Zones and the wider context of the circular economy, which provides a strategic and economic framework for a greener future, based on the principles of reduce, reuse and recycle. And with that in mind, we’ll be hearing from Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox, the Founder and CEO of Enval, who served The Women’s

Tour as recycling partner.

“And finally, we’ll be looking ahead to British Cycling’s National Road and Time-Trial Championships, which takes place later this month in Dumfries and Galloway. 

“I’m joined today by my co-host Phil Jones, the Managing Director of Brother UK. Phil, good to see you.”

Phil Jones

 “Hiya Tim. Great to be here."

Timothy John

“And I’m joined by Larry Hickmott, the founder and editor of Brother UK-sponsored VeloUK. Laz, thanks for joining us.”

Larry Hickmott

“No worries. It’s good to be back and doing this.”









Part One: Women's Tour Review

Timothy John

“Well, let’s dive straight in and look back at this year’s thrilling edition of The Women’s Tour, a race that Brother UK has sponsored since its inception in 2014, and which we’ve served since 2016 as Official Print and Results Partner. 

“This year, for the first time, we served as presenting partner of the Green Zones too, and we’ll discuss in detail how it fits with our wider commitment to sustainability. 

“As far as the racing was concerned, well, we couldn’t have hoped for better. After six days of action and excitement, the race was decided by a single second and remained in play until the final metre. 

“Elisa Longo-Borghini of Trek-Segafredo and Grace Brown from FDJ-Nouvelle Aquitaine Futuroscope took the race to the final finish line in Oxford, where, as we’ve said, Longo-Borghini, the Italian road race champion, clinched overall victory by a single second. Kasia Niewadoma of Canyon-SRAM, finished third overall, but, like Brown, missed out on overall victory by a single second.

“There were other great performances too. Lorena Wiebes of Team DSM won three of the six stages to seal overall victory in the points competition, Elise Chabbey was the Queen of

the Mountains and her Canyon-SRAM squad won the team competition.

“Becky Storrie was crowned Best British Rider after finishing 15th on the final general classification, three places ahead of Joss Lowden from Uno-X. Lizzie Holden of Wahoo-LeCol finished third in that competition by finishing 21st on GC. 

“Our stage winners were Clara Copponi of FDJ-Nouvelle Aquitaine Futuroscope, who claimed the opening stage into Bury St Edmunds. Lorena Wiebes of Team DSM won stages two and three. Grace Brown won stage four from Wrexham to Welshpool, billed as the hardest in Women’s Tour history., and Longo-Borghini won the epic fifth stage to the summit of Black

Mountain to set-up the following day’s exhilarating climax in Oxford, where Wiebes was again first across the line.

“In summary, then, an amazing edition of The Women’s Tour and one that lived up to all the pre-race hype. We were promised a GC battle, teed-up by a gruelling parcours, and we got one. 

“Phil, you were the only of the three of us who got boots on the ground at this edition of the race. You went to stage four, which, of course, passed our Brother Industries recycling facility in Ruabon. How did you see the race?”

Phil Jones

“Wasn’t it exciting? For sure, one the best editions that I’ve ever seen. I managed to grab hold of Andy Hawes and do a quick interview with him for our Instagram feed which Rebecca Richardson was looking after on the day. 

“Without a doubt, Andy, who’s the route director, from his perspective, he said it was one of the most difficult routes that he’d ever designed. And who can forget that stunning Black Mountain stage where Elisa Longo Borghini just absolutely powered away to take that stage, which was a bit of a surprise to me, actually. I thought that was a very much a Kasia

Niewiadoma stage, who’s an absolutely brilliant climber, so to see the form of Elisa Longo Borghini was absolutely brilliant.

“The crowds were amazing. I don’t know if you saw some of the photography, particularly from the last stage in Oxford. Iconic photography. Huge crowds out supporting the riders. I was delighted because, of course, on the Wrexham stage, which went right past our factory, we managed to get almost a complete factory shutdown and have a huge number of our Brother people at the side of the road. 

“All-in-all, it was a stunning race, and I really, personally, enjoyed watching it.”

Timothy John 

“Larry, this was one of the few British races that you weren’t able to get to this year. Did you follow the race on television?”

Larry Hickmott

“The only way I follow any race these days is online, simply because I’m at a keyboard from morning through to night, but I did see one of the riders from the race the following day when I was at the Yorkshire championships, and she testified that the legs were a bit sore, and it was a very, very tough race, especially after the first two stages.”

Timothy John

“The big change, I think from last year, and we’ll hear a little later from Becky Storrie on this, is that the course was much more challenge. The division between climbing stages and sprint stages was more equal, and, as Phil and I said in our last edition of the podcast, the race really was likely to be shaped by the two stages in Wales, and indeed it was. 

“Looking ahead, Phil, do you see a harder, more challenging format for The Women’s Tour? That’s certainly the pathway that The Tour of Britain has followed and might even be seen as evidence for the maturity of a race.”

Phil Jones

“Well, based upon what we saw for this race, then I’m sure, or at least I hope, that Andy will go away and, obviously, after consultation with Mick, the overall race director, that we will see some more challenging stages in the future, but, of course, we have to remember that these routes are very much designed around where the money is coming from. 

“Wherever a council is hosting a stage, either hosting a start or a finish, Andy has to, fundamentally, plan a route in between that. I know that he will always make the route as challenging as possible, but I think from a rider’s perspective, it balances out the race pretty well because it means that we get a more exciting race, and spectators do too. 

“If you look at the helicopter shots, it absolutely shows off the best of the country, which is partly what it’s all about. But without a doubt, the riders really enjoy it. The international riders coming over to ride the Women’s Tour, when you hear them in interviews, they all say how much the enjoyed the race.”

Timothy John 

“Absolutely. A truly international field again: Coryn Labecki, the former US champion, rolled out for Jumbo-Visma. Ellen Van Dijk, The Netherlands’ newly-crowned World Hour Record holder. Teniel Campbell from Trinidad and Tobago, racing in the colours of Team Bike Exchange-Jayco. It really was a world-class field. 

“The British riders, though, were far from outclassed. Pfeiffer Georgi is a great example, of course, as the reigning British road champion. She did an outstanding job for Lorena Wiebes on stage three especially, guiding her around the traffic islands on rain-slicked roads in a hectic finish to stage three. I mean, talk about going deep.

“Laz, following the race online, I’m not sure if you were able to form an opinion on whether, ultimately, in Oxford, Trek-Segafredo won the race or whether FDJ-Nouvelle Aquitaine Futuroscope lost it. They seemed to be attempting some ill-advised multi-tasking in trying to win the stage with Clara Copponi, while attempting to clinch overall victory for Brown, who

ended up distanced on that crucial final run-in. Longo-Borghini took the initiative, sprinted to third and the rest is history. I don’t know whether you managed to catch any of the action.”

Larry Hickmott

“I haven’t caught the action, but certainly I pick up the odd thing here and there. No offence to any of the British girls in the race, but having Grace Brown right up there being an Aussie, and me being an Aussie, it would have been nice to have seen her win it!

“But as far as I know, she did get some bonus seconds and was looking good for that. And I think they actually lost the race, rather than Longo Borghini winning it convincingly. I think that if they would had realised that they needed to get Grace up in that sprint, maybe she might have been able to, but bunch sprints and bonus seconds can be very cruel sometimes. If you haven’t got a sprint on you, you can lose GCs like that with bonuses.”

Timothy John

“Yeah, absolutely. A testament too, I think, to the way that SweetSpot had structured the race with that balanced parcours we mentioned earlier and the time bonuses and everything else. 

“All of that, of course, cued up by stage five, from Pembrey Country Park to Black Mountain, which was billed, wasn’t it, as the stage with genuine potential to shape the race.”

Larry Hickmott

“One thing I just want to say about Pembrey having been to Pembrey for the Junior Tour of Wales, which, in itself is a huge race for junior riders. I was there last year, and there were no people there. These were the best juniors: people like Josh Tarling. And yet, when you look at the pictures of the crowd that was a Pembrey for the Women’s Tour, which was huge, that was a demonstration of what a draw card women’s racing can be.”

Timothy John 

“Phil, we said after The Tour Series, didn’t we, that the women’s racing was every bit as good as the men’s, and if The Tour of Britain is anything like as good as this Women’s Tour then I think we’re in for another great race in  September.”

Phil Jones

“Yes, without a doubt, and when you see these big stars come over - the stars that people are seeing on the television, on Eurosport and GCN, riding these big WorldTour races like Paris-Roubaix, and then they’re here on UK roads, I think without a doubt, the crowds were out to support them. 

“I’ve got to say, Larry, I thought Grace Brown was just brilliant. I thought she was excellent on the roads, she was great in her interviews. She really was emerging as a really fantastic rider who, I think, gave Elisa Longo Borghini a real run for her money. 

“And, I think, on that, Elisa Longo Borghini with her wise old racing head, knew what needed to be done. She absolutely got herself positioned correctly. 

"And, I think, a big shout out to Eleanor Backstedt as well: the Welsh rider for Trek-Segafredo. I thought she was working ever so hard, actually. On all the stages, she was doing a great job just policing the bunch, chasing down little bits. I think she was also quite pivotal in bringing Elisa Longo Borghini to the line on stage five.”


Part Two: Becky Storrie Interview

Timothy John 

“Yeah, 100 per cent. A really good showing from all the British riders, but, as we say, the best showing of all came from Becky Storrie. Naturally, everyone at Brother would have been especially pleased because, of course, Becky broke through last year with Brother UK-OnForm, the team now known as Brother UK-Orientation Marketing. 

“Becky is from the Isle of Man. She’s a self-confessed latecomer to the sport, but, my goodness, she’s making up for lost time. She ‘graduated’’, if that’s the right phrase, from OnForm

to CAMS-Basso last year and made her professional debut at last year’s Women’s Tour.

“She’d already shown extremely strong performance in the National Road Series, partially by finishing second at last year’s Ryedale Grand Prix. This year, she’s gone one better in the National Series by wining arguably the most prestigious race in Britain: the Lincoln Grand Prix.

“Let’s hear now from Becky on the morale-boosting crowds and strength-sapping climbs of The Women’s Tour, the benefits to the GC battle of a balanced parcours, her standout performance on Black Mountain, and how a Women’s WorldTour race compares to the National Road Series.”

Becky Storrie

“Well, the crowds are always amazing. I remember last year. It was the first time I’d experienced it. Riding through the towns and you see the school kids on the sides of the roads. It gives you goosebumps as you ride past just because of all the noise. It was the same again this year but on a bigger scale. The weather helped on the days we had good weather.

“It was really nice this year. A lot of the time, before the stages, we could speak to people and spend some time with some of the kids. That’s what it’s all about really, isn’t it? Inspiring that next generation. They just love it, and I love meeting them all. 

“Last year, a lot of the stages were, you know, flat, sprint stages. We had a time-trial last year, which was exciting, but because the other stages were so flat, the time-trial determined

the GC and the rest was very, very predictable, whereas this year, there was kind of something for everyone. 

“The first two stages were more for the sprinters. When you got into Wales, they were more for the climbers and certainly more of the terrain that I enjoy, that I could get stuck into. That made it less predictable. We knew that the GC would shake up once we got to the Black Mountain. It makes it exciting. It adds another dynamic to the racing. 

“I think it was Dean who said to me: ‘Did you look around and look at the kind of riders that you were riding with?’ To be honest, no, I didn’t. Obviously, I look back now and think: ‘Wow!’ To be riding with the likes of some of the names that you mentioned was incredible, but it was just so hard, literally trying to stick to those wheels like glue.  

“Having Dani Christmas in my ear: there was no one else I’d rather have guide me up that mountain or through every stage because she’s just been so valuable to our team. She’s just a breath of fresh air. She’s straight out of the women’s peloton. She knows those riders inside an out. I felt so in control because of her guidance, and I just had to finish off the job for

the girls, so, yeah, it was a good day. 

“Obviously, there is a step up [from the National Road Series to the Women’s WorldTour]. There can be no doing that you ride with the best riders in the world when you race in a WorldTour race, but I definitely think that it’s more achievable than most people believe. The standard of racing in Britain is so high, and I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of talent that we have in the British scene. 

“It’s not easy to win races like the Lincoln GP or the National Series, that’s for sure. It doesn’t matter if you’re a professional bike rider. There are a lot of people who come from the

WorldTour peloton and struggle to get onto the podium at a National Series event, and that’s just because of the quality of riders that we have. 

“It’s definitely a lot more achievable than people think. I guess it’s just having that belief that you deserve to be in that peloton, even though you’ve not been racing for as long as the other riders have been.”

Timothy John 

“Well, good to hear from Becky there, guys. Some wonderful insights. Every time I speak to Becky, I’m hugely impressed by how grounded she is. She’s very level-headed, but her passion for the sport shines through as well. 

“I think it’s fair to say that Becky has a very, very bright future. She looked very comfortable, Phil, on Black Mountain, riding with the strongest climbers in the world.”

Phil Jones

“Yes, it really was brilliant to see, and, you’re right, we’re very proud that we’ve played a very, very tiny part of that story. Ultimately, all we do is provide platforms to perform for riders to fulfil their potential. It’s wonderful to see her go from strength-to-strength, honestly speaking, and really compete with some of the best riders in the world.  And yes, it was cracking to see her doing her thing on Black Mountain and competing with some of these best riders. 

“As far as the future is concerned, then I’d love it if we saw more of the female UK riders make it onto the WorldTour. One of the challenges we’ve got now is that the Women’s Tour is one of the only big times when the women can really show themselves and when all the DS-es are here, and when all the right people are in the right place. And so to put on a good

show at the Women’s Tour, if you want to go up the ladder, that is the showroom in which you do it. I think she did a fantastic job,”

Timothy John

“Absolutely. It’s definitely the pinnacle women’s event on these shores.

“Larry, interesting to hear Becky describe a move from the women’s National Road Series to the Women’s WorldTour as “achievable,” and she said, quite specifically, that WorldTour riders who turn up at national events sometimes struggle to get onto the podium. 

“She said described winning the Lincoln Grand Prix as “not easy,” which might be the understatement of the year, and she’s clearly impressed by the strength-in-depth of the domestic women’s peloton. 

“How accurate a barometer is she of the strength of British women’s road racing?”

Larry Hickmott

“The performance at Lincoln, she was head and shoulders [above her competitors]. The way that she was able to have so much left at the end to be able to win the way that she did just proved what a talent she is. 

“She’s still new to the sport. She’s still learning. She will have learned an awful lot from that stage on Black Mountain and from the other stages as well, so she’s definitely one of the

leading lights. 

“I think the difficulty in knowing whether a rider is going to make it in the WorldTour or not is that you can have riders who can dominate or be successful over here, but they’re at their limit and can’t make that step up to WorldTour, whereas Becky showed that she can, and there’s still more in the tank, She can go to the WorldTour, and she can make that level.

“The level here: it’s interesting the way the CAMS-Basso picked up Sammi Stuart just before the race, and then Sammie go in the break on her own and showed the world just what a great talent she is. Danni Shrosbree did exactly the same. 

“We’re seeing a lot of the top British riders go into a team like CAMS-Basso or the Drops team, and they’re racing in Europe now, and that gives a chance to the local girls to prove

themselves without the other girls here. 

“I think their performances - Sammie’s performance, Danni’s performance and Becky’s performance - in that race, the Women’s Tour, should be a great inspiration to the local girls.”

Part Three: Brexit and Covid

 Phil Jones

“Tim, I just want to raise another quick point around this, which, again, is something a bit hidden from view: how riders make it in the post-Brexit world. I had a good chat with Tim Harris who’s the DS of EF Education-TIBCO-SVB, obviously Tim a former national road race champion. He’s been a DS in the men’s WorldTour. 

“I was just having a chat with Tim on the line in Wrexham and asking him: ‘How are things?’ He said: ‘Wow! The grief to get here has been unbelievable. We’ve had to leave deposits

with customs because we’ve got all of these bikes on the roof, and there’s this huge duty down payment. It really was a lot of work for us to get here.’

“Number one, we really need big races like the Women’s Tour, UCI-level races, in order for the teams to come here. If they don’t come here then we haven’t got the right people viewing the right riders. That’s the first point. 

“The second point is that now, with travel restrictions, from the UK to the EU, it also limits the number of days that UK riders can spend in Europe, so that means with training camps and races, that if you really are a European team looking back at UK riders, there’s this new dynamic for UK riders which is different from those who are EU citizens. 

“It’s a ‘thing’, and why it may do is narrow opportunity for UK riders. I think we’ve all got to be aware of it and, hopefully, there will be ways around that so it doesn’t stop someone

making it up to the WorldTour."

Timothy John

“Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I learned about this issue last year by interviewing Harry Tanfield and then Anna Henderson. It’s tempting to think, isn’t it, that it’s gone away because we’re a year down the line and other Brexit issues are commanding the headlines, but the movement of British athletes and other British professionals, like people in the performing

arts, that whole issue seems to have fallen from the news agenda.

“But you’re absolute right, Phil: it’s a very, very live issue. British riders have always had to fight harder than their Continental cousins, I think, to forge professional careers in mainland Europe, and certainly what we don’t want to be doing is putting barriers in their way. Let’s keep an eye on that situation.”

“Larry, you wanted to come in there.”

Larry Hickmott

“I think Covid is also an issue. I was speaking to a team in the race who had seven or eight riders who were down through injury and through Covid and illness. What that did was open the way for other riders to join the team because they needed more riders. 

“There are things like that and the whole Brexit thing, as you say, with Harry Tanfield and others, that was a big issue and sounds like it still is.”

Timothy John

“Absolutely. It’s so easy to think that because an issue isn’t leading the six o’clock news bulletin that it’s disappeared, but if Tim Harris is to be believed, and it’s hard to imagine a more impeccable source than Tim, it sounds like it’s very much a live issue.”


Part Four: Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox Interview (Enval)

Timothy John

“Let’s turn to another issue now, and that’s the circular economy. It’s an economic and social context in which businesses and indeed any public or social entity now conducts itself. 

“We’re talking about sustainability and environmental awareness. We’re talking about recycling more and consuming less. We’re talking about, frankly, a professional bike race taking steps to ensure the riders don’t litter the countryside with gel wrappers and even that those gel wrappers are recycled rather than dumped in a landfill. 

“Now, Brother UK can really walk the walk on sustainability, as well as talking the talk. We’ve won two Queens Awards for Enterprise and Sustainability. All of our UK offices are zero

waste to landfill sites, and Brother Industries, our high-tech recycling plant in Ruabon, has been certified as a zero carbon facility by The Carbon Trust. 

“Brother also has a global framework for sustainability, too: the Vision 2050 strategy published by our head office in Japan, which aims to make our entire company carbon free within 30 years. 

“Just to zero in on the Green Zones at The Women’s Tour, there were 26 in total, and, if you add up each of those 200m zones, that’s norm than 5km in which riders over the course of

those six stages could safety and responsibly dispose of gel wrappers.

“They are going to go to Enval, which is a high-tech recycling company in Cambridgeshire, and they use a proprietary technique called microwave induced pyrolysis, where they extrude the aluminium from the foil wrapper, heat the paper and plastic, without incineration, to turn it into a compressed gas, and then turn that gas into pyrolysis oil. That oil can be used for all kinds of different purposes, including making new plastic products. 

“Brother Industries, the plant in Ruabon passed by The Women’s Tour on stage four, that has similarly advanced processes. It’s where we refurbish and remanufacture laser and ink jest

toner cartridges. 

“We’re going to hear now Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox, who gained his PhD at Cambridge University, and is the CEO and Founder of Enval. Let’s have a listen to Carlos.”

Dr Carlos Ludlow-Palafox

“As a company, we started trying to recycle flexible packaging but very, very specifically, in the very early days, something called plastic-aluminium laminates, which are the flexible plastics that not only contain plastic but have a layer of aluminium foil in between: you will know these from baby food pouches, toothpaste tubes, and, very importantly in this case, the gel wrappers, the gel tubes that are used by sports people. 

“Because we were recycling these things, we had a contract to help one of the companies that produce the gels. Form there, one of the participants in the Women’s Tour, got in touch with us saying: “I’m a keen recyclist. I would love it if more of my colleagues could recycle these things. Could I put you in touch with the organisers of the Women’s Tour?’ And she did. 

“Of course, it was a fantastic opportunity, not only recycling material, but for promoting what we’re doing, and also for promoting the credentials of the tour itself and the sustainability that they want to achieve. 

“So, one thing led to the other. The organisers of the tour got in touch with us, and we agreed that Enval would be the recycler of the flexible packing that gets collected, which we know is going to be, primarily, gels and energy bar wrappers and things like that, which will be collected from the Green Zones sponsored by Brother. It’s a great opportunity that happened a little bit by chance, but it’s fantastic to be involved. 

“Essentially, pyrolysis is a process in which you break molecules, and you break those molecules with heat. A lot of people will know that plastics are polymers. There are many different types of polymers. Plastics are polymers. Paper is a polymer, and the proteins that form our muscles. 

“You can pyrolyse - break those molecules - irrespectively of whether it’s plastic, or whether it’s paper, or whether it’s my arm. The little units that you form once you break the molecule will depend on what that molecule was in the first place. Pyrolysis overall is the process of using heat in the absence of oxygen, and this is very important, to break that molecule. 

“Everything we do at the moment is because of the circular economy. It is such an obvious thing to understand in my opinion that we need to be more circular in everything we do, not

only in plastics but in many of the aspects of our lives. 

“Yes, we are at the forefront of circularity in the plastics world, and it’s great to be there. I think there’s still a huge road ahead of us in terms of becoming a more circular society. Circularity in itself is a very complex thing. It’s one of the parts of the puzzle. I do think that it is very important to be more circular, but there is still a long way to go in that sense.”

Part Five: The Circular Economy

Timothy John 

“Well, good to hear there from Carlos. You’ll know all about the circular economy from leadership of Brother UK.”

Phil Jones

“Oh yes, it’s high on the agenda of all businesses. Certainly, if you look at the public sector and government, and if you want to do business in any large enterprise nowadays you’ve got to be demonstrating that you are making great progress in what we call scope one, scope three emissions globally, and also subscribing to things like the UN Sustainable Development Goals, which we do as an organisation. 

“I really love businesses like Carlos’. He’s one of these new businesses. A lot of this future carbon capture, retrieval, storage recycling, up cycling, everything to do with the circular economy, we need knew innovation. Clearly, what Carlos has brought to market is some new innovation. 

“Applying that to the Women’s Tour, just looking at the wrappers for gels, is that these small things can become huge things overnight, demonstrating what can be done in working in

partnership with Enval. 

“What we wanted to do was to send a message to all the bike races globally to say: ‘This can be done, It’s not difficult to do. The technology now exists. We’ve just go to make sure that we collect the stuff and send it over there and it gets treated and that’s all fine.’

“We’ve said before in a previous podcast that bike racing still has a fairly big C02 footprint, let’s be honest about it. When we look at the vehicles that are used: the huge buses, washing

machines on the buses. Flights. All of these sorts of things.

“There’s a very, very big footprint around the sport, and, at some stage, someone is going to be looking at that and saying: ‘Well, what can we do to bring down the C02 footprint of the supporting infrastructure around cycling. Clearly, when the cyclists are on their bikes, there is no issue, but the convoys and the A to B-ing of those convoys, and the wider national movement of these convoys of vehicles which does create a rather large C02 footprint for this sport. 

“So I think we all have to have to start somewhere, don’t we? At the moment, we’re starting with something small like the gel wrappers, but, I think, in the future battery ranges will extend. Vehicles in the race convoy will be EV: electric vehicles. We’re probably going to see coach technology evolve: batteries in the coaches and large vehicles supporting the

convoy, but that could be 10 or 15 years away before we see that.

“We’re going to see e-motorbikes and e-scooters, so as the convoy is trundling through, with the TV motos and the regulators, they’re likely to be on e-scooters in the future. That’s going to need better charging infrastructures in all of the places that these Tours go to, whether that’s the Tour de France, the Giro d’Italia or the Women’s Tour or the Tour of Britain. 

“The convoy is going to need charging infrastructure, and is that here today? No, it’s not. But I think someone, somewhere needs to be looking at his whole bigger picture and

developing a plan for the sport of cycling in order that it does it’s bit for the future, too.”

Timothy John

“And do you see a role, Phil, for responsible businesses in shaping that plan, particularly for companies who have investments in professional cycling? 

“We’ve just seen how a business like Brother UK and how a business like Enval can work in partnership with a race organiser like SweetSpot to create a clean, responsible race that

ensures gel wrappers don’t end up at the side of the road, don’t end up in landfill even, but end up being converted into oil for a second use. 

“Clearly the support both of Brother and Enval has helped SweetSpot deliver a responsible race.”

Phil Jones

“Yes, for sure, and there’s a commercial play here that there will be a commercial need for the sport to change, globally, because sponsors like Brother will be looking at sports and sectors and saying: ’This is what we do, and we only now want to sponsors sports which align with our sustainable aims,’ and sports which are not offering benefit or evidence that they are moving in that direction of travel, you may find that you’re going to have sponsors peeling away, and that’s never a good thing. 

“I think the hard, commercial side of this will come to bear. Regardless of which sport you are in, it needs to be actively demonstrating, as businesses are having to demonstrate, what it

is we are doing. We need to evidence what we do. 

“I’m sat here in a London hotel at the moment, Tim, recording this with you, but one of my jobs to finish today is our statutory accounts, and one part of our statutory duty is to detail our Scope One and Scope Three emissions under a UN agreement, to make them legally, statutorily available as a set of number and statistics. 

“Maybe in the future, each WorldTour cycling team will need to do that, and the sport might need to wrap that up somehow and present it to a governing body, whether it be the UCI or

somewhere else. We are doing those things because from a statutory perspective we have to do those things as a business, but, fundamentally, it starts here and then moves over. 

“I guess the sport can look at some of the things that business does, and then go: ‘In the future, we may well be asked to do the same.’ Therefore I think we’re going to see people like ESG officers as part of a WorldTour team set-up, whose job it is to measure those miles, to look at that C02 footprint and present that back to the world.”

Timothy John 

“That’s really encouraging development: that businesses might place a positive pressure on race organisers to raise their game in the sustainability stakes. 

“Just as a post-script, I spoke earlier this week to Hayley Simmonds, a rider with CAMS-Basso, and, like Carlos Ludlow-Palafox, someone who left Cambridge University with a PhD in


“Hayley returned her used gel wrappers to Enval in a special pouch provided by SiS, and then contacted Enval to see if they would be interested in working with The Women’s Tour. A year later, the partnership has delivered.

“I think that’ s a brilliant example of how change can be affected from within. We’re hoping to hear more from Hayley in a future episode, when she’s recovered from a knee injury that, sadly, kept her out of The Women’s Tour this year.”



Part Six: Women's CiCLE Classic Preview

Timothy John 

“Let’s turn our attention now back to racing. We’re going to talk about he Women’s and Junior CiCLE Classic, which last year really served as a beacon for a return to normality in elite British road racing. 

“The race attracted a huge field of 140 rider, which was the largest peloton ever assembled for an elite women’s race in the UK for what turned out to be a thrilling race. 

“This year, the race came very close to folding after finding itself at the centre of a dispute between its principal funder, a private individual called Pete Stanton, and British Cycling over the federation’s policy on transgender cyclists. 

“Let’s hear now from Colin on the precise nature of the challenge he faced and how he overcame it. I caught up with him earlier and began by asking if he could remember his reaction when he first learned that Pete’s incredibly generous funding of the event was about to be withdrawn.”

Colin Clews

“I think I do remember my response, and I think one or two words are not suitable for this blog or any other publication, but as quickly as I thought that, I had to accept that Peter’s opinion was Peter’s opinion. Whether or not I shared that view was immaterial and it was a case of: ‘What are we going to do to save the race?’ 

“We therefore looked at ways of solving this. By that time, various women’s rights groups had got involved, and I’m very grateful to them in a way, because they increased the exposure of the crowdfunding initiative that we set up to a worldwide audience. 

“To say that some of the contributions brought tears to your eyes. The one I’ve quoted to so many people is to receive an email from someone in Nicaragua: lady in Nicaragua saying: ‘I

don’t have much money, but I’m going to give £15 towards saving this event because I believe so much in women’s sport.’ 

“It’s little things like that. You start to feel humanity when you get things like that happening. That was repeated over and over again. In fact, nearly 600 people contributed to that crowdfunding. 

“We wanted to raise £15,000 from that source. We managed to raise over £20,000, with a further contribution from British Cycling, who were as keen as anyone to keep the event alive this year, we managed to pull the funds together, and, as I say, we are happily going ahead now.

“The outcome has also been very, very positive in that we were wanting, really, to get a further, long-term sponsor involved. The publicity that it all engendered has brought that about. 

“We are in the process now of signing a three-year deal, commencing next year, which will safeguard the women’s race until 2025, so there’s excellent news still to come, and we

couldn’t’ be happier that it’s turned out this way, not just for us, but for the women we want to create this race for.”

Timothy John

“So there we are. Good to hear there from Colin Clews, the race director of the CiCLE Classic, and shocking to hear there how close we came to losing one of the most cherished races on the British calendar. 

“Larry, had we lost the Women’s CiCLE Classic, what kind of hole would it have left in the fabric of elite women’s road racing in this country?”

Larry Hickmott

“It would have been a major, major loss. You’ve only got to look at the way that it kick-started the season last year with that huge, record field. Even this year, I’m looking at races that are struggling to get 50, 60 riders, and yet Colin has still got over 100 riders wanting to do it."

“The women know that there is luck involved in this race. The women know that it is a tough race and that they may not have a chance of victory, but they still want to be a part of it. It’s

a leading race. It’s definitely one of the leading races. Along with Lincoln, it’s a huge event.”

Timothy John 

“And Phil, just taking you to put on your commercial hat, crowd funding can seem like a last resort, but it did the job for Colin. Can you see other race organisers turning to crowd funding? Clearly, it works well when you have a passionate fan base, but it’s fare from the most stable means of revenue.”

Phil Jones

“Yeah, we’ve gone of over this topic quite a lot, haven’t we Tim: the sustainability of the sport. The first thing is that I’m super-delighted that the race was able to get crowdfunded and get what it needed and get the shortfall raised. Is that the future for how all races are funded? Well, I hope now, because it becomes quite fragile if that is the case. 

‘I’ve spoken extensively here that the sponsorship environment is really rather tough for any sport with business because business is still emerging from the pandemic We’ve got quite

uncertain trading and economic conditions ahead of us at the moment, and, as a result, it makes people a little bit hesitant to start throwing money at things. 

‘We’re not out of the woods yet about how the sport is funded, but in the short-term, I’m just rather delighted that we are going to see this race go ahead.”

Timothy John

“I thought the most interesting aspect of the commercial theme was that the race had gained a new sponsor, and one that has pledged investment for three years. It’s interesting, isn’t it: that old phrase: ‘Any publicity is good publicity.’ 

“That a controversy would attract a new sponsor. I guess the new investor would say: ‘Look, this is a race that is important to women, it’s wonderful that it’s been saved and this is something that we would like to support going forwards.

“From a sporting perspective, Larry, I saw the provisional start list on your website earlier in the week. Who is your money on? There are some tremendous riders, including double world junior champion Zoe Backstedt, Josie Nelson, who’s sister Emily won it a couple of years ago. 

“Then there’s Becks Durrell, and anyone who watched The Tour Series would have seen Becks getting stronger round-by-round and, of course, she won this race in 2016. Emma

Jeffers was another stand-out rider in The Tour Series, winning two of the six rounds. 

“Who do you fancy to win this race?”

Larry Hickmott

“I think it’s a more open race this year. As I’ve said before, the teams that have taken people like Abi Smith, who has gone WorldTour, who won last year by over two minutes: teams like that who have taken the riders into Europe are now not in the race, so the opportunity is there for other riders to step up. 

“Among those, obviously, are the junior riders. You’ve got Zoe Backstedt who I saw dominate the women’s road race a few weeks ago. There are a lot of juniors in the race, like Emma Jeffers, who was a stunning performer in the Tour Series. If Emma gets there, everybody knows now that they’ve got to watch out. You’ve got loads and loads of juniors, but you’ve got

the likes of Becky Storrie as well. We know how strong Becky is. 

“We also know that the CiCLE Classic, although it’s looked upon as an on-road, off-road race like Paris-Roubaix, it is very hilly and so that’s going to suit someone like Becky. 

“But a rider who has already won it, Rebecca Durrell, she, during the Tour Series, showed that even after she’s had her first child, she’s coming back to the form from before that. Hers

is definitely a name that sits in my mind.

“Ellen McDermott, she’s done well there; she’s podium-ed there. There are so many names. Awen Roberts from Wales, who was in the break with Zoe Backstedt the other day. There are so many riders. It’s a very open race. 

“Eluned King. She’s riding for Le Col - Wahoo. She’s won rounds of the Tour Series. She’s a very fast girl. Anna Kay. She’s a world star in cyclo-cross. It’s going to be an absolutely storming race.” 

Timothy John 

“Absolutely. Well, the CiCLE Classic is another race where we’ll proudly be inside the peloton, as well as its side, courtesy of our two sponsored teams. 

“Brother UK-Orientation Marketing have fielded arguably their strongest squad, including the junior Olympic Academy trio of Grace Lister, Holly Ramsey and Izzy Sharp. 

“Stay tuned, because in a moment will bring you insights from Mark Botteley, who is not only the manager of Brother UK-Orientation Marketing, aka Team OnForm, but the CiCLE

Classic is his home race.

“Now, the Team Brother UK-LDN squad will include Mark’s daughter, the vastly experienced Sian Botteley, who’ll, effectively, be racing on home roads. Fran Cutts, another rider with huge experience. Lauren Higham, well, she’s another of manager Ian Watson’s young guns, plus their new signing Tiffany Keep who won at the first time of asking for her new team in a crit race.

“We’ll have some strong riders in the peloton, I think, Phil, as well as our Neutral Service p/b Brother UK crews.”

Phil Jones

“It’s well worth noting, Tim, that Tiffany is also a very experienced mountain biker. The parcours of the CiCLE Classic may suit her. Let’s hope that she might be able to pop up and do something special. 

“We also know that that race can bring us many surprises. There are so many technicals on that particular race. It’s absolutely the busiest race for neutral service bar none in the UK scene. We know that there are lots of punctures. That even things like where your car sits in the convoy can be critical to the outcome of the race. 

“The tyre pressures you run. The tyre widths that you run. How well your bike is set-up. How good a bike handler you are. And then, of course, making sure that you don’t crash. 

“I mean, it’s got everything. If you’re a winner of the CiCLE Classic, then I think you really are a worthy winner.”

Timothy John

“Yeah, agreed. No one wins a race as demanding as the CiCLE Classic by chance. Luck plays a part, of course, but it’s equally fair to say that only the strong survive at a race aptly nicknamed “Britain’s Paris-Roubaix". 

"If you want to learn more about the role of Neutral Service p/b Brother UK at the CiCLE Classic, then check out episode 11, where Phil and I previewed the 2021 Women’s CiCLE Classic with insights from service manager Tony Barry. It’s still available on our website, of course, as well from Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify etc. 

“Now, we did promise you insights from Mark Botteley, the team manager of Brother UK-Orientation Marketing, and a former rider who spent years training on the roads now used by the CiCLE Classic. Here’s Mark, with a personal take on the CiCLE Classic and see insights into his squad selection.”


Part Seven: Mark Botteley Interview

Mark Botteley

“Hi, I’m Mark Botteley, team manager of Brother UK - Orientation Marketing. This weekend, we move onto my local race and a race very close to my heart: the CiCLE Classic. 

“I’ve been going out to recce the race with riders, then watching the race and watching the men’s race for many, many years, so it’s race I know very, very well. I know every inch of the

terrain, and, hopefully, I can pass on that inside knowledge to the riders and, hopefully, fingers crossed, we’ll have a great race this weekend.

“The race is really hard, and, although everyone talks about the rough sectors, I think it’s the country lanes that make up over 80 per cent of the course, with their rolling nature, that are so decisive. Yes, you do need a bit of luck, but nearly always, the top places are filled by riders in good form, who know how to ride in a bunch and how to handle themselves. 

“Our team this year is made up of seven riders. It’s a good mix with national junior squad members Izzy Sharp, Grace Lister and Holly Ramsey, being joined by Jessie Carridge, fresh from winning the team time-trial championships, and then finally making up the team, will be Hope Inglis, who is an excellent cycle-cross rider whom, I’m sure, will relish the uniqueness of the race. 

“Ellen Bennett, who proved when winning the CAMS-Basso race at Redbridge last year that the harder and more punchy the race, the better her chances. Finally, local girl Abi Cooper, who lives 25 miles from the race HQ and is our least experienced rider. Abi will be using this race to continue her progression. Having been on placement for the last six weeks, as she finishes her degree I physiotherapy, it’s difficult to know exactly where she’s at. For Abi, our plans were always more geared to the second half of the season where the races, being hillier in nature, will definitely suit her more. 

“We also have a full squad of helpers on the day. If there’s one race where a good background team is essential, then this is it. Fingers crossed, the inevitable whittled down bunch will

feature a few of our riders at the death.”


Part Eight - National Championships Preview

Timothy John 

“We are really up to speed now with this 2022 campaign. We’ve looked back at the Women’s Tour, and looked ahead to the Women’s CiCLE Classic, but, goodness me, the National Road and Time-Trial Championships take place before the end of the month. 

“They start on Thursday June 23 and run until Sunday June 26 They’ll be held this year in Dumfries and Galloway: the first time the nationals have been north of the border since 2013.

“We’ll have a time-trial, of course: that’s on Thursday June 23 at the Crichton Estate. The elite men will race over 44.2km: two laps of the circuit, while the elite women, and the U23 men and women, they’ll be timed over a single lap of 22.1km. British Cycling describe the loop as a ‘fast course’, featuring just 141m of climbing.

“On Friday June 24, we’ll have the circuit races which, for my money…actually, I was about to say the circuit races were the most exciting events at last year’s national championships in Lincoln. I don’t know if you remember Jo Tindley just riding off the front to dominate the women’s race, and Harry Tanfield, Ethan Hayter and Lewis Askey going wheel-to-wheel for an hour in a thrilling men’s race. I’m sure Harry still wonders how he didn’t win the men’s race. Ethan Hayter just came from nowhere to pass him on the line.

“This year’s 1km course which passes MacLelland Castle, a 16h Century fortress, looks set to provide another atmospheric setting for the 1km course, and both elite men and women

will race for an hour plus five laps.

“All of these events, of course, are scene setters for the road races, which will close the show on Sunday 26. They start and finish in Castle Douglas, which Tour Series fans will remember from last year.

“The course includes two loops: a ‘long’ loop of 22.9km and a short loop of 13.7km, each of them passing through Castle Douglas. The elite men will race for ;201km: four laps of the long loop, plus eight laps of the short loop. The elite women will race for 128km: two laps of the long loop; six laps of the short loop.

“It’s a race that doesn’t lack star quality. Ben Swift from INEOS-Grenadiers, the reigning champion, will be back to defend his crown, as well Pfeiffer Georgi of Team DSM. The

defending time-trial champions, Ethan Hayter of INEOS-Grenadiers and Anna Henderson of Jumbo-Visma, are expected back as well. 

“The rest of the field is pretty much a who’s who of British road racing. Alex Dowsett of Israel-Premier Tech, for example, who’s already a six-time winner of the British men’s time-trial crown, he’ll be back. Joss Lowden of Uno-X, a former UCI World Hour Record Holder, Connor Swift from Area-Samsic, who, of course, won the national road title while still on a domestic team: he won it in 2018, racing in the colours of Madison-Genesis. It’s accurate, I think, to describe this year’s national championships as a star-studded field.

“Phil, you must be looking forward to this. Last year, we saw the nationals right at the end of the season as a sort of exclamation mark. This year, they’ll return to their traditional mid-season slot. Which do you prefer?”

Phil Jones 

“I don’t know. I actually quite liked it at the end of the season. It gave everybody that thing to look forward to. Everyone had done all their racing, got all their fitness, and this was the big hurrah, wasn’t it? That if you could end your season…what a way to end, by securing the national champion’s jersey. I don’t know. Something in me says the end of the season, but it is what it is. 

“I always love the road champs. You get this very unique situation where, of course, everyone’s not on a trade team, but they still are on a trade team. You can really see who wants it and who doesn’t. 

“I noticed on the start list that Jo Tindley has a full squad; an absolutely full complement of riders. CAMS-Basso have. Equally, on the men’s circuit champs, Matt Bostock, with the form he showed in the Tour Series is going to be pretty hard to beat. WiV-Sungod have got a total of about five riders on the day, which will mean that they’ll be able to ride as a team and

ride as a squad. You kind of get this although we’re all in this for ourselves, there is a bit of a team thing going on. 

“I think the blue ribband has surely got to be the road races and the time-trials. INEOS-Grenadiers are bringing over the big guns. We’ve got Mark Cavendish racing. We’ve got all the big names coming. It still is something, isn’t it, to have the national champion’s jersey. It still means something, event to these WorldTour riders, that they would come back to the UK, to Dumfries and Galloway, to see if they can still get it. There’s some kudos to still having your jersey on a WorldTour team, and they still want it.”

Timothy John

“Yeah, that’s a very good point, and hats off to Cavendish. After all that he’s achieved - the 34 Tour de France stage wins, the World Championship, the Monument victory at Milan-Sanremo - the national championships matter to Cavendish, don’t they? He’s here year in,  year out. 

“Larry, last year’s national were  absolutely spectacular on that Lincoln course. Is that going to be a tough acct to follow?”

Larry Hickmott

“I think Lincoln is always a tough act to follow. You need almost a race like the CiCLE Classic, which is very unique, to compete with something like that. 

“The nationals, this year, you’ve just got to look at the number of riders who are coming in from Europe, and the number of riders who we have going into Europe, another half-a-dozen

or a dozen this year have gone over there, guys like Sam Watson, for example, and they’re making their mark; they’re winning races.

“To see all of these guys - I think I counted about 30 of them - who are coming over here [for the national championships] whereas before, sometimes you would get two or three or half-a-dozen, but to have 30 of them….it’s not like the old days where they might form a little combine to compete against the British riders. The British riders are now completing in a brutal battle, if you like, to get the stripes.

“The course, from what I understand, is tough, wearing down, but not particularly like Lincoln, where you have the cobbles and the steep climb. There’s a little bit of a kicker on the finishing circuit, but someone like Cavendish, for example, that kicker probably won’t be much of a problem. Cavendish could well be there at the finish. 

“But even if he is, you’ve got guys like Ethan Vernon, who’s already had a pro win in a bunch sprint. You’ve got a lot of fast guys, so it’s very hard to predict, but it’s going to be one heck of a race.”


Timothy John 

“Well, look, thanks guys. We’ve covered a whole range of topics there. The season, I think we can safely say, is now in top gear. 

“As if The Women’s Tour, The Women’s CiCLE Classic and The National Championships weren’t enough for June, we’ll squeeze in Otley Grand Prix before the month is out.

“July will bring two more rounds of the National Road Series: the Lancaster Grand Prix on July 17, and then the only stage race on the National Road Series calendar: the Manx International from July 22 to July 24. 

“We’ll also have further rounds of the National Circuit Series, including Ilkley and Barnsley, and then there’s the small matter of the Commonwealth Games, with a little help from Neutral Service p/b Brother UK. 

“Phil, can you tell us a bit more about that? I think you’ve given the green light to Tony to help out at the Commonwealth Games.”

Phil Jones

“Tony has actually provided support to the Commonwealth Games for a long time and across many disciplines, actually. Because of the way the Commonwealth Games and Olympics work, the cars can’t be branded. The cars might look familiar, but they won’t have the branding or it might be covered up. But without a doubt, Tony and his team will be out there providing that. 

“I’ll be over on the Isle of Man for three days. We’re providing some financial support for the three day race there, including getting the cars over, and we’ve provided a little bit of

additional financial support for our teams to get over there, so that will be very, very exciting. I’m looking forward to that.”

Timothy John

“Brilliant. Great stuff. 

“In a final bit of breaking news, Grace Lister of Brother UK - Orientation Marketing has been selected by Team England to compete for the senior squad on the track at the upcoming

Commonwealth Games. Not bad for a junior. Chapeau, Grace. 

“We’re wishing all the luck in the world to Brother UK-sponsored Rebecca Richardson for her assault on the Haute Route Alps, a gruelling, closed-roads stage race the concludes with a timed ascent of the mythical l’Alpe d’Huez. Rebecca will be riding for the NoMan Campaign, which aims to eliminate the five per cent of cancers caused by the Human Papillomavirus of HPV.

“Special thanks to Rebecca for taking over our Instagram channel with Phil on stage four of the Women’s Tour and to Daisy May Barnes for organising the insights from manager Mark Botteley that we heard earlier. 

“Phil, Larry, thanks very much indeed for joining me and thanks to everybody out there listening.”

Phil Jones

“If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please hit subscribe.”