Deb John is the co-founder of Cold Dark North and a race organiser with many cherished events on her palmares, including the Proper Northern Road Race Series and the national masters championships for men and women. This year, Cold Dark North will help to organise the National Hill Climb Championships, too. Enjoy Deb’s insights and observations and gain a detailed insight into the challenges and satisfactions of being a race organiser.
Timothy John
“If your passion lies in elite British road racing and you want an inside line on the teams, riders, organisers and sponsors that make this sport such a compelling spectacle, you’re in the right place.
“I’m Timothy John and joining me for every episode is my co-host, the Managing Director of Brother UK, Phil Jones.”
Phil Jones
“Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here. We’re going to use this platform to talk about all the key issues surrounding the sport. With special guests, deep dives into hot topics and plenty of chat, we’ll keep you informed about all things UK racing. Stay tuned!”
Timothy John
“Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Brother UK Cycling Podcast, where today we’re joined by Deb John, the co-founder of Cold Dark North, 'a brand not a business', to use their own phrase, dedicated to promoting cycling in the Lake District, Yorkshire Dales and Forest of Bowland.
“A former racer, Deb leads Cold Dark North’s racing operations, including its Proper Northern Road Race Series: a three-race series of National B events at Capernwray, Oakenclough and Aughton.
“The recent edition of the Capernwray Road Race was another unqualified success, and this Sunday’s round in Oakenclough will provide an eagerly anticipated follow-up.
refreshing regularity, Cold Dark North seems in the vanguard of a shift in domestic road racing.
“Who better then to ask than Deb for an inside line on the reinvigoration of British domestic road racing from the grass roots of the sport. Deb, thank-you very much indeed for joining us.”
Deb John
"My pleasure."
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Well let’s dive in. How was the Capernwray road race? We’re a few weeks down the road now. When we spoke before the race, you feared cataclysmic weather conditions, but it turned out fine, I think.”
Deb John
“Really, very, very good. We only had a bit of rain towards the end of the women’s race. Most of the racing was in dry conditions, if a bit blustery.”
Timothy John
“Well, you had a couple of very worthy winners, I think it would be fair to say, in Ollie Peckover and Cat Ferguson. Tell us a little more about them.”
Deb John
“Well, Ollie Peckover, I think a lot of people rate him as a racer, even though he seems a little bit to fly under the radar. He didn’t only when the race overall race, he won the King of the Mountains competition also. A very worthy winner, I think.
“Cat Ferguson was kind of a revelation, although not so much. I remember watching her race in the junior world cyclocross championships, where she finished sixth. That’s no small achievement.
So, yes, amazing.”
Timothy John
“How about the organisational side? Was that also a success? Did you get enough funds in the tin to do it all again next year?”
Deb John
“Yes. We’re really fortunate to have some great sponsors who’ve been with us for a while. They sponsor the prizes: financial and otherwise. We had such strong, full fields in both the races and especially the women’s, because it’s such a hard course. It was fabulous. It was just a fabulous race.”
Timothy John
“I was talking to Phil Jones, Brother UK’s Managing Director and this podcast’s co-host, and I said: ‘Phil, I’m going to speak to Deb,’ and he said he’d ridden with you and had been ‘dropped early.’ He said: ‘Go anywhere near a hill, and you’re likely to be dropped.’ Now, do you have any comment to make, Deb?”
Deb John
“It was a little while ago, and I’m probably not so great up hills at the moment, but it was a pleasure. I remember that ride with a lot of fondness: Tobes, me and Phil. It was a ride over the [Lune] Coal Road, which is a legendary road around here. A legendary ride.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“Well, let’s get into the meat of this conversation. Let’s talk about Cold Dark North and you personally, Deb. When did you begin organising races? Before Cold Dark North existed, I think.”
Deb John
“Well, I started organising my club’s reliability ride for a couple of years. That edged me gently into organising a ride and dealing with all the people who wanted to enter something. Then, I started to volunteer on races, I guess to learn from the bottom up. It’s quite a steep learning curve, as an organiser, and I think it’s a really good idea for would-be organisers to volunteer on races so they can see how it works.”
Timothy John
“What was your motivation for getting involved on the organisational side? I mean, why become a race organiser?”
Deb John
“I think partly it was because I was really getting a bit long in the tooth for racing, and you have to protect your bones when you get to my age etc. But I love racing. I just love it. It’s such a great spectacle, and I have a lot of respect for racers, and especially the women, because there hasn’t always been such a great scene for women’s racing, especially at grassroots level.
“Having raced Capernwray myself and known how difficult it was, when I was given the chance to organise it, I leapt at it, especially because it involved a flagship of women’s racing. I felt that was a great springboard to put on other women’s races and always make sure that for every men’s race, there was a women’s race, and we treated them equally.
“I don’t know if you’d call it fun but the satisfaction bit of it, and the response from women and men has just been fantastic. Incredibly satisfying.”
Timothy John
“What qualifications did you have as a race organiser, if that’s the right phrase? I know, for example, from an earlier conversation, that you’re also a BC-certified commissaire and that you have experience of organising ‘other things’. Were you able to call on that wider experience?”
Deb John
“There are a lot of transferable skills from other areas, both as a florist and as a caterer; being detail-oriented and making sure that everything is right. I was a research fellow at a university. I have an academic career behind me, also.
“I really enjoy working cooperatively. Flat hierarchies are my preferred context. I think all those things added together make me quite skilled to do these kind of things.”
Timothy John
“Was your experience as a rider a help or a hindrance? Did it give you an inside line on the qualities of a good bike race? Or is a rider’s perspective completely irrelevant to the demands placed on an organiser?”
Deb John
“No, I don’t think it was a hindrance at all. I think being part of the peloton, although never really up at the pointy end, when you talk with the other riders afterwards, you pick up things that they weren’t so happy about, or things that didn’t work very well, without being criticised personally. I already had a little pot of things that I wanted to pay attention to and that I wanted to work on.
to do something, then you do it as best as you can. No excuses.
“I really try to answer people’s enquiries as quickly as possible; not leave it a week. I want everybody to feel that they’ve been taken notice of and their entry into it and their riding is appreciated by me.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“When did you found Cold Dark North with Toby?”
Deb John
"2016."
Timothy John
“And what was the motivation behind that?”
Deb John
“Toby moved up from London, and we both love the area we live in. For riding, there’s nothing quite like it. It’s very undiscovered, in many ways, for riders. We wanted to promote it. Initially, we looked at cyclo-tourism, routes etc. But I think we realised quickly that was a totally full-time thing that you had to get into. Toby has a full-time job. I did at the time.
what we both wanted to do, in terms of cycling.”
Timothy John
“Had you already organised the Capernwray Road Race before Cold Dark North was founded? Or was it an early project for Cold Dark North?”
Deb John
“It was an early project for Cold Dark North, and it was a project where we were really clear that we could put what we thought was important into effect; where we could give opportunities to men and women and making it equal.”
Timothy John
“Well, we’re taking almost exclusively about Capernwray, but there are two other races in the Proper Northern Road Race Series, Oakenclough and Aughton; Oakenclough, of course, being this weekend.
“When did you add them to the series, and, again, what was your motivation for doing so? Did it seem like a natural progression?”
Deb John
“We ran Capernwray, and then we picked up the defunct national women’s masters road race, which was really important, supporting that with a 2/3/4 race, and we did that for four years.
In the latter two of those years, we also ran the national men’s masters road race because that had been dropped as well. It’s quite a lot more organising because there are different requirements when it’s a national championship.
“They were both hugely exhausting, so we decided that, as other people in the country wanted to run it, and these things should be shared around the country, then we would pass that on.
the chance to race as a team, rather than as a whole load of individuals. It encourages different skills and different attitudes.
"Toby, as usual, was completely supportive of what may have been a crazy idea. And there didn't seem to be much else like that. There are some two-day stage races which are fantastic, but there were not so many series for men and for women."
Timothy John
“If you wanted to make Capernwray a National A race, or indeed any race from the Proper Northern Road Race Series, would that be a possibility? Is that even an ambition?”
Deb John
“Only if some of the requirements changed for National A races. It has to be a closed road, for it to be a National A race, which involves a lot more expense, in terms of the police closing the roads, barriers, the equipment that’s used, timing chips etc, etc. Those things are quite difficult.
thousands.
“I’m not sure if I really want to go into that, although I would always be up for helping or being involved in doing something like that.”
Timothy John
“Tell us something about the defining characteristics of a National B. From the top of my head, you don’t need to close the roads. You can operate with the support of the National Escort Group. The field size is limited I think to 60 riders, dependent upon the commissaire. Have I understood that correctly?”
Deb John
“It depends on the circuit, and the BC risk assessment for the circuit, and how many people it allows. You can sometimes ask for dispensations, but, in all honesty, I think that 60 is probably a good number for the courses that we have around here.
“What else? Well, there’s a basic standard of kilometres for you to cover for it to meet a National B standard. It can be fewer, depending on the altitude climbed. Capernwray has over 1500m of climbing in the race, which means that it doesn’t have to meet the limit of kilometres. You can do slightly less.
“There are altitude and distance criteria you have to meet. Those are the main ones, I think.”
Timothy John
“Who are the people that you couldn’t run a National B race without?”
Deb John
“Couldn’t run them without the NEGs; without the expertise of the ‘comms’, who know the courses, who have to drive the courses beforehand. We put out all the signs. We have a great guy here, Alan Roper, who always delivers the signs; he’s incredibly helpful about everything to do with signage. We put those out the night before; the day before.
“The ‘comm’ will drive the course first thing in the morning, taking notice of where everything is, the weather, the state of the roads etc, so he or she can deliver a good speech to the riders informing them of any potential problems.
time. They have a uniform, so people take notice of them, rather than just somebody waving a red flag.
“And I couldn’t do it without the small team of people who help me in all my races. Some of them aren’t even cyclists but they love the buzz of being involved in organising it, so that’s great.”
Timothy John
“And the medics: are they provided by BC or do you have to provide those yourself?”
Deb John
“I source those. That’s changed since we first started. The level of medical support required on the route has become much clearer. You have to go with a firm who provides that. You can’t just put a nurse and a doctor in a car and say, ‘Drive around.’
“I’m very pleased about that, even though it is an added expense, I think it is a very important one. Cycling is dangerous.”
Timothy John
doctor’s car?”
Deb John
“I don’t think you need to understand cycling. It helps if you get a bit of experience driving your vehicle in the race convoy because you need to know how it operates, but, no, it’s medical expertise, really.”
Timothy John
“Do you receive any general guidance from British Cycling? I know that they have a role within the organisation called a Cycle Sport Developer who advises on things like the most appropriate date on the calendar, for example. Do you liaise with BC at any level?”
Deb John
“We have date-setting meetings the year before. We usually put our dates in then, but there is a mismatch in that, which I’m sure will be addressed by British Cycling, but, often, the National As put them in much later than us in the National Bs.
added on the day that we were going to [hold Capernwray].
“That’s such a big race and we don’t want to be in competition with it for riders, so we moved our race. Really, we had to move it forwards rather than backwards because the calendar was getting quite full.
“It would be good if we could somehow have a system where everybody puts their dates in earlier so we can sort that out before the year starts, as it were, but when you think that it’s a whole country divided into regions, it’s quite a jigsaw to put together.”
Timothy John
“Yeah, absolutely. What about costs? We talked about costs briefly earlier in the conversation within the context of National A races. I think one of the many of the attractions for an organiser in staging a National B is that it’s substantially cheaper. So what are the costs in putting on a National B? There must still be key areas of expenditure that you just can’t get around.”
Deb John
“All the volunteers have mileage expense. When you think about the level of expertise they offer, it’s not a huge amount, but it is a large amount in terms of the percentage of entry fees, which is how we cover the costs of our races.
We pay a levy to the national British Cycling and to the region for every rider who enters. Out of their entry fee, there’s a levy paid.
“We put in some of the prize money. Our sponsors give the rest of the prize money, but we also contribute some of what we take in entry fees to the prize money. And, because our races run all day - an awful lot of races may only have a men’s race in the morning - so I feed everybody in the middle of the day, and that costs something in terms of energy.
“All those costs add up to a couple of thousand; maybe more.”
Timothy John
“Now, the perception is that National B is more accessible, more affordable, a more easily achieved standard of racing, but, clearly, there’s a level of professionalism demanded as well.”
Deb John
“There really is. Because we’ve used all of these circuits a number of times, it’s really important that the people who live on these circuits do not feel overlooked or disrespected or uninformed about what’s going to happen.
“In the past, it’s just been, ‘Oh, there’s a race happening. Nobody told us but suddenly we can’t get out of our house,’ so we really try to put up signs beforehand, talk to the people in the know, get information out there and get people on our side.
“I think that’s really, really important if we’re not to lose circuits because we have lost circuits through people on the course saying, ‘We don’t want this anymore.’”
Timothy John
right phrase, to win public opinion. They donated all or their profits to local charities, and Brother UK’s sponsorship formed part of that. I think you’re definitely on the right lines there.
“Now you mentioned putting up signs. Does Cold Dark North own a big chunk of infrastructure these days? Or are you begging and borrowing and getting what you need when you need it?”
Deb John
“We own the numbers, and we own the sticks that the signs go on, but BC provide radios, car lights, the signs that go on the sticks, the podium, all kinds of things that would be very hard if we had also…
“We try and by things every year with any money that we make, but, no, it would be very hard to put on National Bs without that kind of support from the region.”
Timothy John
“Generally speaking, Deb, do you feel that you’re well enough supported by the region as a National B race organiser?”
Deb John
“It’s difficult in some ways when you’re dealing with the national BC and the regional BC. They can be quite different animals, and, working in the region, I probably have a closer relationship with the regional officers than with the national officers, who I really only had to deal with when I was putting on the national masters races.
“They’re a little bit more distant than the regional ones, so in that way, yes, I would prefer dealing with the regional officers. I think they have quite a difficult job, and I think that they do it as well as they can.”
Timothy John
“Diving further into the economic context of a National B race, is Cold Dark North a not-for-profit company? How would you describe your approach to race organisation from an economic point of view?”
Deb John
“We are a not-for-profit organisation. We’re not the ASO, regardless of how much we might like to be! Neither of us makes a living out of this, but it is important that we build up a little bit of money just in case one of our races doesn’t cover the costs.
“And, also, even though we don’t put on 3/4 races, we like to support new riders going into racing, especially things around us, which might be time-trials or hill climbs, which aren’t quite as off-putting as a road race. You’re not going to end up in a bunch. You’re less likely to come off; less likely to have an accident.
“We try to encourage people by sponsoring their entry into hill climbs; things like that. If things come our way, and people ask us, then we’ll always consider helping them.”
Timothy John
“What are the principal sources of revenue? Is it race entry, or are there other sources around that?”
Deb John
“The principal source of revenue is race entry, and, as I said, our sponsors, who either provide financial prizes or other prizes. We work with Fell Brewery and Atkinson’s Coffee, thinking coffee and beer are two things that riders can relate to, although when it comes to juniors, unfortunately, it’s very difficult: we can’t really hand them beer as a prize! We do give them coffee but they’re not that keen on it, so they hand it to their parents!
“But the financial support of our sponsors is vital to give good prizes. We could run the race without that, but we wouldn’t be able to give the financial prizes we give.”
Timothy John
“Could you put a number on the costs of staging a race like Capernwray?”
Deb John
“I would say, including the prizes, we’re looking at somewhere between £3000 and £5000, which might not sound a lot when you’re talking about National As, which cost ten times as much, but it’s still a lot of money as a brand with no real income, if we’re ending up paying costs, which we haven’t so far.”
Timothy John
“That’s a very good way of putting it, Deb. I mean £5000 sounds like a comparatively insignificant sum to stage a sporting event, until you’re the person who has to raise that sum. Have you ever found yourself in the unfortunate position of facing a loss?”
Deb John
“We’ve done ok; we’ve done ok on that kind of thing. As a series, it costs between £10,000 and £12,000, a bit more to put on, because the prize money is just over £3000 for the series, and then putting on the races, it’s round about that kind of that kind of cost. When you look at what it costs through the year, it’s a significant cost.”
Timothy John
“Is it tougher to make the numbers add up for the other two rounds?”
Deb John
“Yes. Even if there’s, ostensibly, a profit after Capernwray, I really need to hold it until we do the final one in July, because I don’t really know how many people will be...l know that some teams will be away at the end of April, doing races abroad.
“That’s one of the things that have changed with teams coming in: even if they’re not pro teams, a lot more teams take their members abroad to do a few races. They’re not always in this country to be able to do them.”
Timothy John
“Are you confident that Oakenclough and Aughton will grow too, perhaps by piggybacking on Capernwray’s success?”
Deb John
“Yes, I think so. Last year, it wasn’t necessarily the strongest team that won the overall team prize, it was the team that was at all three events. You have to be at the last event to be able to win it. If you just do the first two, regardless of how well you’ve done, you can’t get it. We don’t really want to give prizes to somebody who isn’t there. You really have to be there, so it was a fairly local team who won it. In that way, you feel you can reward people for doing the whole series. I think that works.”
Timothy John
“Well, this might be wildly ambitious, but can you foresee a time when overall victory in the Proper Northern Road Race Series might almost rival the prestige of winning the National Road Series?”
Deb John
“I have a feeling that the margins are always the most interesting place to be in terms of witnessing change and where you stand. The margins is a great place to stand, and if that’s where we are, I’m kind of happy with that, and I’m not really interested in trying to compete with the National Road Series, but to be something that runs alongside it…
“You always need more than one pathway. Always. The winners: for instance, Sammie [Stuart], who did win the National Road Series, I think came second in our series with Mary Wilkinson taking the overall title. There seems to be a bit of synergy, and you can tell one from the other.
“It gives people more of a chance to win one thing. You’re not just looking at people who win the National Road Series, you’re looking at people who win other series that are quite prestigious with difficult courses. I feel fine about that one.”
INTERLUDE
Timothy John
“The one thing that organisers cannot legislate for is character. Strade Bianche, I guess, is the ultimate example, but Tro-Bro Léon would be another, the CiCLE Classic; even the Lincoln Grand Prix. It seems that Capernwray belongs in that category, too.”
Deb John
“Oh, to even be included in a list of those races is tremendously flattering, and both Toby and I would be immensely proud just to be in the same sentence as any of those races.”
Timothy John
“Tell us about your wider ambitions, Deb. You mentioned that it would be difficult to make Capernwray a National A race, even if you wanted to, given the geographical challenges of getting a convoy of cars, neutral service etc along those very narrow roads.
“But do you have ambitions to expand? I mean, if BC came to you and said, ‘Look, we’d really like to use this course for a national championships,’ as they’ve done at Lincoln, as they’re doing this year in Cleveland, would you put your hand up for that?”
Deb John
“Definitely be interested in discussing it with them. The actual Capernwray course, the circuit that’s risk assessed: there is a larger, longer course that’s has been risk assessed in the past, so if BC decided to put the money into doing that, ti would be enormously helpful. There are things that they could do to include that. We’d always be open to discussions, absolutely.”
Timothy John
“Well, more power to you, Deb. I think many people would be delighted to see Cold Dark North organise a National Road Race Championships. I love your observation that the margins are always the most interesting place to stand. It’s the characterful events that people cherish, and you certainly have at least one of those, so congratulations on that.”
INTERLUDE
OUTRO
Timothy John
“Now, if people want to follow Cold Dark North on social media, how do they go about it?”
Deb John
“Our website is just colddarknorth.co.uk. I think it comes up first on any search. It’s a great site. Well done, Toby, for putting it together. It’s well worth looking at. If you want to know about any of the riding around here, the hills, you can just look at all the interviews with racers, non-racers, people who’ve done the Fred Whitton seven times and can really tell you about it; women who’ve done the Fred [Whitton] seven times, who can tell you about all the hills.
“It’s a great website to look at, and the Instagram account and the Stories are really well done, so you can check that out about Capernwray.”
Timothy John
“Brilliant. And your social media address is @colddarknorth, I think.
compete over six laps and the women will race for five laps. Each lap is 17.5km and contains 270m of climbing, so far from flat.
“If you want live updates, race photography, video interviews then follow Brother UK-sponsored VeloUK on Twitter @velouk and @aussielarry. Of course, you can follow Brother Cycling, too. We’re @brothercycling on all three channels.
“Deb, thank-you very much indeed for joining me today, and thank-you to everybody out there for listening.”
Phil Jones
“If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please hit subscribe.”
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